Connecticut’s pro same-sex “marriage” activists say forcing churches to approve their “weddings” is not one of their goals. But we have already seen one lesbian couple in Canada sue the Knights of Columbus for refusing to host their “wedding” reception. And now another lesbian couple in New Jersey has sparked a government investigation of a church for refusing to allow their civil union ceremony on its property. But the church is fighting back:

TRENTON, N.J. (AP) – A church group sued New Jersey on Monday over the state’s investigation of a complaint that the group refused to allow a lesbian couple to hold a civil union ceremony at a beachfront pavilion it owns.

The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, a Methodist group, alleges that by finding enough reason to investigate the complaint, the state’s Division on Civil Rights is threatening to prosecute the group in order to force it to allow such ceremonies to take place.

The investigation is the first of its kind for New Jersey, which began allowing same-sex couples to enter into civil unions in February…

The organization said if the group were to allow civil union ceremonies for same-sex couples to take place, it would constitute approval of such unions. The lawsuit also says the state’s investigation has forced the association to limit use of the pavilion for weddings out of fear of prosecution.

“The government can’t force a private Christian organization to use its property in a way that would violate its own religious beliefs,” said Brian Raum, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, which is representing the association.

26 Responses to “Forcing Churches To Approve Same-Sex “Marriage””

  1. on 18 Aug 2007 at 6:05 pmDoug

    Ah, yes! “Separation of Church and state,” but not separation of state and Church! This is the kind of in your face, like it or not, down your throat tactics that the radical gay lobby calls “tolerance.” What about “tolerance” for religious beleifs of a person or organization, or is that going up the radical gay lobby’s one way street the wrong way?

    This was no accident. This was undoubtedly premeditated by someone seeking to be a “victim” once again. I’m sick and tired of antagonistic thin skinned professional victims consantly seeking to be offended and then crying “woe is me” and pointing fingers at everyone else when they get what they sought after. A gay couple seeking a wedding reception in a Christian Church hall makes about as much sense as a rape victim seeking the Plan B pill from a Catholic hospital. I’m not ruling out that someone couldn’t genuinely be that stupid, but I think more often than not in such instances, these folks are as dumb as a fox and I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. This is yet another cheap shot at religious institutions by gay antognizers with more spare time than common sense, but with very poor camoflouge used to obscure their true intentions. Good for the Church for digging in their heels and fighting back.

    In the worst case scenario, such halls and bars rented out by religious and fraternal groups will be forced to ultimately seek a limited and cheaper liquor permit, thus excluding all of the general public and then making such facilities available to their own members only, which is a shame because such facilities are great for fund raising, but it least they will then be able to completly keep out ambualnce chasing unwanted pests pursuing an agenda and 15 minutes of shame.

    Yes, I know, we’re all a bunch of gay-hating homophobes. Boo-hoo. Despite my own personal views, I can very easily “tolerate” what someone esle does on their own property, but if they set foot on my property (by ownership or membership) and try to force their version of “tolerance” on me, then we’re going to have a problem, and in the reverse scenario, gays would respond the exact same way. Next Christmas, try setting up a Nativity scene in front of a San Francisco “public” bath house and see what happens!

    This kind of underhanded ploy creats more divison and rancor than “tolerance” and unity. I understand and accept that this particular gay couple does not by any means speak for all gays, but they’re certainly not doing them or their so-called cause any favors, either.


  2. on 18 Aug 2007 at 9:31 pmDavid

    I happen to agree that these couples are wrong to try and force this issue unless they were members of the church or organization involved. There are tons of places where ceremonies/receptions can be held. But, an individual’s/couple’s actions do not necessarily represent the rest of us and it is simply dishonest to try and claim there is some kind of organized movement to force churches to be involved in our ceremonies. If one accepts that logic as legitimate then it is perfectly reasonable to say that all conservative “christians” are in league with the Phelps cult.

  3. on 19 Aug 2007 at 9:35 amDoug


    Just as a clarification, as I mentioned in my posting, I do not beleive that this couple represents all gays. However, I do beleive that in the mindset of some gays, this is, for lack of a better term, warfare, and there are both individuals as well as organizations within the gay community that seek to stir things up rather than to achieve any sembalnce of harmony. I beleive that mindset comes from the fringe element of gays, and as I referred to that element in my posting, the radicals. In all fairness, most gays I have ever known don’t go looking for this kind of needless sensationalism, and as I also said, I think the ones who do are the ones who bring about more harm than good to both sides of this issue.


  4. on 19 Aug 2007 at 10:31 amPaul

    It’s unconstitutional to try and force churches that don’t approve of same-sex marriage to marry those couples. They can just go to another church that does allow them to marry. No church has been forced to do such though.

    Also, most bills, such as the one that was approved once again in the California congress, usually affirms the rights of religious institutions to have their right to marry and not marry those who they deem fit as well as give same-sex couples the right to civil marriage.

    So please, don’t be opposed to civil marriage for same-sex couples because of those 2 instances. Gay people just want equal rights under the law.

  5. on 19 Aug 2007 at 8:53 pmDavid

    Doug actually when I wrote what I did your response had not yet posted. The article is written in such a way that it implies exactly that assumption – that the actions of a few represent all of us. The same mentality is what allows “christians” to condemn all LGBT people for S&M, pedophilia, promiscuity, broken marriages, adultery and the whole list of generalizations used a “evidence” that we are flawed human beings and that we have an “agenda” to drag the world to hell with us.

  6. on 20 Aug 2007 at 2:24 pmPeter

    But, an individual’s/couple’s actions do not necessarily represent the rest of us and it is simply dishonest to try and claim there is some kind of organized movement to force churches to be involved in our ceremonies.

    David, I understand your point and, like Doug, I’m not saying the Ocean Grove incident represents all same-sex “marriage” activists. But it is the push for same-sex “marriage” that makes such incidents inevitable. Redefining marriage will have consequences that will shock even some of its proponents. Ocean Grove and the Canadian K of C are just two examples.

    Also, what does represent “the rest of” the pro same-sex “marriage” movement seems to be in question, as I’m about to note in another post on a related topic. Our local opponents laugh off warnings of polygamy while their national peers endorse it in the Beyond Gay Marriage statement. There seems to be a pattern of saying “we’re not supporting such and such” right up until the moment pro same-sex “marriage” activists decide–or are willing to say publicly–that they are supporting “such and such.”

  7. on 20 Aug 2007 at 5:16 pmliz

    This is about NJ “public accomindation” not about “church”.
    wish the person who wrote the opinion piece listed the facts of what’s going on instead of a few tidbits. Why not lay it all on the table to get an informative view?

    1. When the hurricanes damaged the Ocean Grove boardwalk and Pavilion, and the funds where not there to rebuild, the CAMP association sought out federal funds to make the repairs. The boardwalk and pavilion are part of the New Jersey Green Fund. Part of the stipulation for getting this money is to ensure the public benefits from whatever the money is used for. This in turn makes the pavilion public.
    2. The pavilion has been host to Jewish, catholic, atheist, protestant, civil weddings.
    3. The association charges a fee to anyone who wishes to use the pavilion.
    4. The pavilion is an open air wooden structure that skateboarders use; people use to get out of the sun etc…. There are NO holy marking anywhere on the structure.
    5. The women who want to use it are residents of Ocean Grove. They have lived there for over 10 years. They pay taxes and are legal us citizens.
    6. Never has anyone asked the church to wed them. Just use the building located on the beach for 1/2 hr.
    7. The CAMP association has hired right-wing attorneys to sue the state of NJ to strip its citizens of the basic right to not be discriminated against because of sexual orientation.
    8. The CAMP association while in mediation with the women decides to sue and bring this issue to the national spotlight instead of resolving this on a local level. Can we say hidden agenda?
    9. Majority of the Ocean Grove residents favor supporting the women’s right to equality.
    10. There is a reason church membership and attendance is on the decline. As the people get older they lose touch with the rest of society. Just like this issue, it’s not that big of a deal. But when the religious people come out kicking and screaming and name calling, people see it for what it is. Pure hate for their fellow man.

  8. on 22 Aug 2007 at 4:06 pmtomie

    Thank you for the clarifications, Liz.

  9. on 22 Aug 2007 at 5:59 pmDavid

    Actually, the Beyond Gay Marriage statement does not say one thing that is threatening to those who feel that the best family structure is married male/female exclusivly – for their own lives. It is extremely threatening to those who want to enforce their personal choices on every one else. Personally I think it is an excellent statement and a beautiful vision of a truly free and just society. One who is truly pro-family should endorse it without hesitation. One thing I did find when I googled it is how much the rightwing media outlets feed off of each other. The same nonsense repeated word for word on site after site, most likely by people who have never actually read it. Very sad. There’s no push to redefine marriage, but simply to acknowledge and support the varieties of families that people live in and always have.

  10. on 22 Aug 2007 at 9:58 pmMyra

    It is amazing to me that not only do Christians have to live with the gays and their lifestyle shoved down their throats but the gay community keeps encroaching on all that we believe in. This couple may not be one of the couples that tend to want to start trouble but let the gay community have a rally to change some law in this country and by all odds this couple will be right there ready to march, if not marching, at least supporting the march. For the most part, I do not believe all gays are bad or live to change the world but there is a faction that makes change or “shoving it in our face” their goal. Thanks to the ACLU and other liberal and secular organizations of this country the Christian religion is under attack whether you believe it or not. If you are naive enough not to believe it then I have a piece of land at the south pole you might like to buy. This lawsuit is just one more way to break Christianity’s back. In my opinion, it appears that what the radical gay community really wants is their way of life accepted as the norm and the Christian way destroyed. With the Christian religion destroyed, they can live their lifestyle and spare themselves the shame of “living in sin” as the Christian majority sees it. The natural course then is to destroy all that Christianity holds sacred. If one chooses a secular lifestyle and is not religious why then do they try so hard to change the rest of the world to see life as they see it. They should just live their life and let Christians live theirs. Why do they expect everyone to embrace the alternative lifestyle when they know that Christians are by the most part non-approving of it because of their Christian beliefs?

    Liz, you put forth a good argument but your eyes are a little brown. Read your Bible and you will see where you are wrong. Most younger folks do not have the time to truly devote to their Bible reading as there are too many worldly things to do, school, children, work, etc. How many really know who is running for political office in their counties and what the platform of each person running is? On the other hand, I bet they know what group is playing at their favorite concert hall or bar. Ask most older folks, they will know and most will tell you who their political favorites are and why. As for as losing touch with the rest of society, most older folks choose not to be a part of the secular way of life. It is unfortunate that you see older folks as being as vile as you say. What you do not know is that while you are out drinking, having fun at games, amusement parks, movies, or getting laid and doing all other things younger folks do (whatever it is you choose to do) don’t forget we, the older generation, have been there, seen and chosen to take part or not to take part, (your generation was not the first to put church last in your lives or choose to live a life of excitement). Being a Christian does not mean just going to church on Sunday. The older generation has been fortunate to have lived life long enough to know that what this secular world offers is not enough and they are serious about what their Bible demands of them. Don’t be too critical, this may be you in a few years. The old religious people have had time to study, and learn there is more to life than what the mainstream youth embraces. Don’t lump us all in one category, our legs and bodies may not work as well as they did in our youth but you could learn much from us. unfortunately Liz, you have it wrong, the older generation has had time to learn both, the worldly way and the Biblical way. Sadly, the worldly way is the most fun and interesting, but not the most fulfilling. If you live right, you may live long enough to learn that someday.

    I am older (I am sure that is no suprise) and I am a Christian and you can Call me any name you want but this lawsuit, as I see it, is all in the plan which most of the secular world has waged against the Christian religion and the gay/lesbian community as well as the atheist community are both players in this plan as well as the ACLU. Not all are involved but never-the-less their community is. Believe it or not, it is true. The goal: to continue to destroy the beliefs of the Christian religion which eventually will leave the nation open to any and every paganistic belief known to man, new Laws and changes in the constitution you cannot even phantom. Just look back at the changes in the last 30 years: Co-habitation, Marriage seems to be a dirty word, and the norm is single mothers choosing not to get married, destroying babies in the womb, some churches accepting gay priests, shall I go on. The constant chipping away of the things we believe in (Prayer in schools, nativity scenes, crosses, I could go on but you get the message) and the core of Christianity is the target. By the true Christian belief the lifestyle of the lesbian/gay community is totally against what true Christianity is about and unacceptable to the God whom we worship. (A true Christian being one who knows their Bible and believes it in its entirety, not the lukewarm believer who believes one bible verse but not another.) That is selective religion, not Christianity.

    My opinion, A person who calls himself Christian but does not live by the Bible is not a true Christian but instead is one who defiles the name of Christianity. Secular groups can believe what they want, just don’t ask our churches to change our beliefs to accommodate them. To those of us (Christians) who love our God and Savior, we are as he was, non-approving of such “perversion” as our Holy Bible calls it. As God’s children we accept the gay community as they are His Children as it is he who will ultimately have to deal with them, but their way of life we do not have to accept. If the gay couple wants to have their reception and union blessed by a religion, or just have their reception in a pretty place, let them choose a place or religion that does not compromise the beliefs of the church or owner of the location they choose. Why not choose a muslim temple, Jewish temple or some other common ground, or church of any other religion to have their union blessed and expect them to accept the gay way of life over the way of life taught by those religions. I doubt there would be much success there. The gay community may want equal rights under the law but equal rights does not mean they have the right to force churches to accept that which they believe to be wrong. Those with alternative lifestyles should choose a secular place where their way of life is not offensive. I certainly would not go to a Jewish or Muslim temple and expect them to bless or perform my Christian marriage ceremony or reception. As an older Christian whom is supposed to have lost touch with society, that is the way I see it. Others may see it differently and may label me any name they want but Names don’t bother me. However, let’s set the record straight, we who are Christians have no hate for our fellow man, however, we pray that all will someday know the God we know. Hate is not approved by our creator. On the other hand, It is time that our Christian church congregations stand up and quit being the silent majority. The gay, secular and atheist communities can believe and do what they want but do not try to change the world around us, the laws of this land were established with Christianity as its base and we Christians will fight for our rights if need be. We have as much right to fight for what we believe as the Secular, atheists, gays and illegal immigrants have.

    The gay couple in this instance I believed started the fight. They could have chosen another place and respected the Christian belief, no they chose to fight in a court of law. Would they go to a Muslim temple and expect to be blessed by that community? very unlikely, why then do they expect the Christian Church to do any different? We are not screaming or name calling, but don’t expect the Christian community to stand by quietly and let their rights be taken away one by one without standing up for what we believe.

    Oh goodness, as an older person out of touch with society, I must admit that I have never heard of the Phelps cult, or what it is but as a person very active in my community and the political world, I will be checking it out. If they believe as I, then I will be proud to say I belong to it. If not, please refrain from placing labels on those who do not believe as you do. Most the world knows what the Christian belief is and trying to change how we believe is a big deal! Praying and keeping true to His word and not letting that which He deems perversion in His houses of worship or on His Holy ground,as He demands, is the duty of every Christian. I applaud the church and its members for having the forthrightness to stand up for their beliefs. Do not Christians deserve equal rights also? Gays want equal rights under the law in the secular world and I believe they have that, What they need to learn is that Christians have rights too. With all the beautiful parks, and many beautiful places in their state, we all know this couple could have settled on a place just as beautiful someplace else instead of trying to force their lifestyle on a group of individuals that sees the gay lifestyle as offensive to them.

  11. on 23 Aug 2007 at 5:37 amDavid

    “one more way to break Christianity’s back”

    Christianity as a spiritual way of life based on the teaching of Jesus Christ can never be broken. Fundamentalist use of religion based on man made legalism and political power must be broken if this country and the world are to survive. Christianity is not under attack, aggressive and oppressive religious structures are. And none of this has the slightest connection to the issue of this couple using the campground.

    ” (A true Christian being one who knows their Bible and believes it in its entirety, not the lukewarm believer who believes one bible verse but not another.) That is selective religion, not Christianity. ”

    Can you, in all honesty name one person, denomination or organization that does not do that? No, because there isn’t one.

    “We are not screaming or name calling, ”

    Oh no? Maybe you personally are not but many claiming to be Christian certainly are. Do look up Phelps, Minutemen United, Repent America and like organizations. Look at the nonsense going on in Ft. Lauderdale with the mayor creating an issue that doesn’t exist and many of the anti-gay hate groups like AFTAH chiming in with their lies. Remember the 10 commandments at the court house issue? A bit of screaming going on there. Whole organizations base their existance on name-calling and attack literature with the LGBT communities as their main focus. Open your eyes ma’am, there is a segment of Christianity that is on the offensive against innocent, whether you believe it or not.

    “On the other hand, It is time that our Christian church congregations stand up and quit being the silent majority. ”

    Absolutely! But the first thing many of them need to do is discover the true teaching of Jesus Christ and realize what they should be standing up for.

  12. on 23 Aug 2007 at 7:58 amBrent

    Amen Myra,
    Although not an older Christian, I also see the downhill path our society has taken since the ’80’s when I was a teen.

    It just goes to show that while God and His atributes haven’t changed, mankind has. Such was the likes of Sodom and Gomorrah who’s destroyed city remnants remain as evidence of the Lord’s judgement (see Wyatt archeological on the web)
    Another evidence of judgement was the days of Noah. Why was it that the world was flooded again? Oh yeah, because of mankinds wickedness and perversions. And the rainbow, God’s promise not to destroy the earth by flood again. Strange how the homosexual community uses something of God’s promise and perverts it.

    God is willing that none should perish but, come to repentance. He’s given us all free will to follow Him…or not. Mankind is a fallen race, sin inherited from the fall of Adam and Eve. God is holy and cannot tolerate sin. In the old testament animals were offered as only a covering for sin year by year but, the peoples hearts were still not right. Then, Jesus came. He took the sins of the world upon Him and died in our place. Those who accept this are forgiven and transformed. God also sent the Holy Spirit to live in the hearts of mankind and thus changed the hearts of those who accepted this gift.

    For those that cannot understand this, I will put it another way. Suppose that you committed a crime many years ago. Since then you have been a “good person” and have done no wrong. You’ve served the community well and shown acts of kindness to others. One day, you get caught. You plead with the judge to have mercy because of your goodness over the years. Would that judge be doing justice to let you go? Absoulutly not! He wouln’t be a good judge to do that. The sentence is the most horrible prison unless you can pay an extremely high fine right then and there. You can’t pay but, some stranger speaks up and says that he already paid your fine and you are free. How would you feel about this stranger and what would you do?

    If you have ever lied, stolen (even if something small), or looked upon the opposite sex lustfully you have broken just three of God’s commandments. To hate someone is committing murder in your heart (another commandment). God is the judge of these things. To break even one of these is breaking God’s law and has consequences but, a stranger stood in our place to take that punishment, Jesus. He paid that price so you could live. It is a gift. His hand is extended with this gift, all one has to do is reach out and take it. It cannot be thrust upon us. Anyone getting this yet?

  13. on 23 Aug 2007 at 9:43 amtomie


    I found your post quite interesting. You obviously feel threatened and under siege due to your religious beliefs.

    I am aghast to think that Christians are being persecuted here in the United States. Would you be so kind as to tell us exactly how you have been persecuted — your personal experiences?

    For example:

    Has your Church been stopped from holding services?
    Have you been stopped from attending your Church?
    Has the liturgy of your Church been censored?
    Have you been stopped from receiving the sacraments at your Church?
    Has anyone attempted to take your Bible, or censor your Bible?

    Do you have children?
    Were you stopped from having them baptized?
    Were you stopped from teaching them your religious beliefs?
    Were you stopped from sending them to religious instruction?
    Were any impediments put in your way at all in making sure your children received all the sacraments of your faith?

    Have you been stopped from celebrating Christian religious holidays as you wish?
    Have you been stopped from decorating your home/property to reflect the religious nature of those holidays?
    Have you been stopped from extending and sending religious greetings of the holidays, etc?

    Were you stopped from having heterosexual relationships?
    Were you stopped from having a heterosexual marriage?

    Has anyone tried to force you to enter into marriage or a relationship with a person of the same gender?

    Has anyone tried to force you to watch any kind of movie or television show that contains homosexuality?
    Has anyone forced you to read books with homosexual themes?

  14. on 23 Aug 2007 at 2:04 pmRix

    The following article from The New York Times of June 5, 1908, might be of interest to people:

    OCEAN GROVE, June 4.–By a decision of the Monmouth County Board of Taxation handed down today Ocean Grove’s $3,000,000 beach front, the property of the Camp Meeting Association, is to escape taxation. It was shown to the board by the association’s legal representative, Samuel A. Patterson, that the valuable strip of land, with its board walk, had been dedicated years ago by the association as a public highway, and not therefore subject to taxation

  15. on 23 Aug 2007 at 3:25 pmMyra

    Brent, as we well know there will be very few that get it. Sorry David, you need a few more years yet and less drive to prove to the world that the Gay way of life is acceptable. To most it may be, but not to a true Christian. However, as a human being and one of God’s children we mean the gays no harm. We only ask that they get out of our face and stop trying to force this alternative lifestyle on us. And Christian beliefs have everything to do with that campground.

    Mind you I am not a member of the Phelps Cult as I honor our soldiers and war heroes and Praise the Lord for their bravery. As for Mr. Phelps stance on the gay community I guess he and I do share the fact that it is an abomination to the Lord as the Bible states. If sharing that belief makes my right to free speech as spewing hate speech there we go again with the labels, “Phelps Cult” Hate Speech” when in reality, it is FREE SPEECH which I have a right to. However, I do not scream and call names, I do however, separate myself from a community that chooses a lifestyle that flies in the face of God. Also, a person defines himself by who he associates with and with whom he agrees thus I identify with the Christian community. That I believe is my right also. Could it be that the gay community knows in their heart that the groups they object to are defending their freedom of speech, and their rights and the truths the gay and atheist communities know also to be true but do not want to accept? Why does the actions of these groups make the gay community feel oppressed? If Gays are so secure in their alternative lifestyle why bother with what we think. Just recognize that we have rights too. The gay groups have parades and show nudity, and exhibit other inappropriate and perverse actions Christians disagree with, these are the symbols they use to define their way of life. does the Christian not have the same rights to show the symbols they believe defines the Christian way of life? With regard to our symbols, they mean nothing to those who are not Christian, so again I ask why do the Christian symbols oppress them.? The symbols cause the gay and atheists communities no harm, they are merely symbols Christians use to honor our creator. I wear a cross around my neck as a way to honor my Creator, I do not worship it, but it is my right to wear it wherever I please or my child to wear a cross to school. Do Christians not have the right to show their symbols when Muslims have special showers for their feet built in the schools and other public places that only their religion can use? Try getting a Muslim to accept the gay alternative way of life. Good luck there. Could it be Gays and other secularist dislike Christian symbols because it may make them think that maybe the Christian way may be right? Just a question. We have the right to our symbols as this country was founded on Christianity as its base, not the churches of a dictatorship or that of any other country. The schools of this country were mostly founded by churches and used as meeting places for the children to learn, now the Christian symbols that guided these teachers and communities for so long are being banned while other religious symbols are being allowed. Who is being discriminated against here, certainly none other than the Christian.

    Regarding Jesus Teaching, I doubt that many in the secular communities do understand the true meaning of Jesus’ Teaching. His teaching as he said was that he came to fulfill the law, not to replace it. We still live by God’s Commandments and God’s laws. Jesus forgave those who sinned but told them to go forth and sin no more. We are all sinful. Repenting and acknowledging what we do as sinful and therefore we strive not to go down that same path again as He requires. Yes we are all human and do break his laws daily but not deliberately in his face. Repentance is a very real part of what He teaches. Not only love. I don’t know about you but my God has many faces, he is loving and tolerant but he is stern and can destroy what he sees as evil and many times the good is destroyed with the bad. (It is the Christian belief that the good has something better to look forward to) I have a healthy respect for my Lord after all he is the “Almighty”, my creator. Therefore a “true” Christian obeys, as well as worships, but don’t take that obedience as weakness, we are prone to stand up for our rights and beliefs. You believe your way and I will believe mine and until you truly understand His teachings it is useless to try to justify a different lifestyle by trying to turn the scriptures on a Christian. It does not work. The only one who will be frustrated is the non-believer. Everyone has the right to their opinion and David you are right in that Christianity’s back can never be broken but sad to say, man has tried for thousands of years to destroy it, and he still continues to do so.

    Back to the campground, the God of my religious belief demands that his church not be defiled by any perverse thing or acts. 30 Minutes to join two gay people in a civil union on that pavilion would have been a perverse act by the Christian standard. The campground in question is Church property set aside by the Church for pastors and religious groups to go to for retreats to regroup and worship in a setting more relaxing and still be on his holy ground without being disturbed. Weddings are performed there, other Christian formats are conducted there. It is there for Christians to use, not those who deliberately defy God’s law. As for the insinuation that Christians think gay community are all flawed individuals, that is not our agenda. They are not flawed, they are children of God who have chosen an alternative lifestyle, one which Christians see as perverse. No they are not flawed, by Christian beliefs, they are sinners who use their lifestyle as a way to defy society. How they live is their choice, don’t shove it in our face.

    David, I would not have to be writing this if you truly understood Jesus teachings and the teachings of the Bible. I have left the scriptures out as you profess to know what the Savior taught. We are simply stating that they are not true Christians and do not have the right to use Christian Holy land and temples to perform that which is perverse to our God while breaking one of his commandments. A true Christian would at least try to obey all his laws, not just a few. On the other hand, our Christian community would gladly welcome any gay individual or individuals to come to our church to learn our ways and to understand why Christians feel as passionate about our religion as we do. The door is always open for any non believer to come to learn about the Word. All are God’s children. The choice is theirs. As for innocence, do you really believe the gay community is innocent? David, MY EYES ARE OPEN, ARE YOU SURE ABOUT YOURS?

  16. on 23 Aug 2007 at 3:59 pmDoug


    You twice mentioned “Phelps.” I assume you mean Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist so-caled church. Honestly, I am not familiar with the other couple groups you mentioned, but I get the drift and I will accept it on face value that they are of the same ilk.

    For that matter, on a previous but fairly recent occasion, I publicly and very vehamently spoke out (in written form) against that group.

    I am a Christian. I oppose the gay lifestyle, but I have nothing whatsoever against gays, and I treat them as I do anyone else, as I, myself would like to be treated, unless they give me sound reason to treat them otherwise, and again, as with anyone else. I know you’re probably sick of hearing this, but it warrants repeating, “hate the sin, love the sinner.” Count me in that group, but not Phelps’ group. Furthermore, Phelps and his crew are a bunch of sick, evil, wretchedly vile whackos who, despite their bogus claims, in no way even remotely represent any semblennce of true Christianity. Make no mistake about it, I find those people as abhorrant a you do, and I also condemn their actions.

    Ask around other Christians you know. I am quite sure that in most, if not all cases, they will pretty much say what I said, and for the ones who don’t, you know what you’re dealing with. Yes, we have our kooky, antagonistic fringe, too, (like Phelps, et al) just as your community does (Act Up, et al) , but they are very rightfully in a very small minority when you look at the bigger picture.

    Decent, respectful people, gay, straight, Christian, secular or otherwise can and do very often simultaneously disagree on issues and still peacefully coexist as people, or more appropriately, and as Jesus taughts us, as “brothers and sisters.”


  17. on 24 Aug 2007 at 5:57 pmMyra

    Doug, very well put. I wholeheartedly agree with your message . Hate the sin, love the sinner is the way Jesus would have treated it.
    I have no hate for the gays, as long as they live their life without involving me. In fact I (living in a college town) rented a room in my home to a young gay college student and he was a hoot. He could cheer me up with his humor more than anyone I know. Of course I was old enough to be his grandma and we had many conversations about his choice of lifestyle. He being the one that would start the conversation. He treated me with respect, he was a good kid and he followed the house rules and he felt right at home there. As I said, I do not hate the gay, just what they do. On the other hand I do not want my grandchildren to be taught these things in school. I don’t even want sex education taught there. That is the responsibility of the parents.


    With regard to the “Phelps cult”, Fred Phelps group was the one that protested at military funerals until Congress passed a law to stop it. These boys gave their life for all of us to have freedom and their parents could not even bury them in peace. Don’t include me in his category. I am one that helped make my congressman aware that the average mainstream American was completely against such outrageous demonstrations and we wanted it stopped. For once Congress did the right thing.

    We can all live side by side as neighbors if the push to change everything we hold sacred is not always under attack. The gay community is not behind it, I know for a fact a certain religion that says it is Christian is and wants all Christian symbols removed from public places as they do not believe in them. Unfortunately lawsuits such as the one brought against the church by the gay couple in New Jersey adds fuel to the fire along with demonstrations against Christian gatherings (San Francisco this year where the average age person attending the gathering was 11 to 16 years old). Acts such as that against children only make people not want to understand the gay community. It defeats the possibility of living side by side in peace.

  18. on 25 Aug 2007 at 7:47 pmDavid

    Myra I will give your long post a serious read, there’s a lot to digest at one sitting 🙂 One note on the protests against the youth rallies in SF. If you are speaking of the ones I am aware of , the issue was not the young people attending, the issue is that the organization that put the event on is a dangerously militant right wing “christian” group that uses military language to whip the crowds into a frenzy which has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. Groups like this have no intention of trying to live side by side with anyone not just LGBT folks. Their attitude is “convert or die”. This kind of rally has great potential for inciting violence, not all who claim to be Christian are warm/fuzzy and loving. Protests against this are not protests against Christianity but against an aggressive, hostile attitude that is not unlike that of the fanatic Muslims whose goal is to “kill the infidel”. That does not excuse the actions/words of some of the protesters, that I agree with.

    The problem I have with the reaction to Phelps picketing military funerals is that no one cared when it was just LGBT funerals, how many Christians spoke out when Matthew Shepard’s funeral was attacked by these people, how many conservative churches stood up for their liberal counterparts when Phelps would picket them? No one and no one’s loved ones should have to deal with something as disgusting as that group, but it only becomes a concern when it impacts “acceptable” families.

    If you really want to live side by side in peace, as it should be, then you need to be as equally concerned about “offenses” by extreme right religious groups as you are about what LGBT people do.

    “Decent, respectful people, gay, straight, Christian, secular or otherwise can and do very often simultaneously disagree on issues and still peacefully coexist as people, or more appropriately, and as Jesus taughts us, as “brothers and sisters.” ”

    I believe that is true though I have not had that experience in Christian circles. I don’t believe that that is intent of most of the “family” groups either – what they strive for is for us to disappear.

  19. on 27 Aug 2007 at 1:42 amMyra


    I read your input and: No, I personally do not feel threatened but that does not mean our Christian beliefs are not being challenged/ threatened one by one. Allow me to suggest you do a little homework and consider the changes that have occurred and the lawsuits that are happening that would not have even been considered a decade ago. You apparently have not lived long enough to see the differences or possibly were too young to take notice. Gay unions have opened the floodgates to every liberal, gay, atheist, and agnostic who wants their minority beliefs to be accepted as the norm. Thus since this country was founded on a Christian base, Then the goal is to take prayer out of school, stop children from wearing crosses around our necks, and the removal of crosses and scriptures in our public parks and buildings, Take reference of God off all our currency, you get the drift. Chip away in any way to make this a secular society. The Christian religion is under attack and that affects my life. No I am not threatened but my religion is! The gays have another problem, they want to go to the same churches they belonged to before coming out and unfortunately Christianity says no that is not a Christian way to live. Thus they feel shut out of certain areas brought about by the gay approval of an alternative lifestyle and rejection of our scriptures. That was their freedom of choice, therefore, they should seek another more tolerant church to be affiliated with. Please quit trying to destroy what we believe in. Our Christian religion does not see the gay lifestyle as being a Christian one. The alternative way of life to the true Christian does not have Biblical approval. If one wants to be gay, fine, but don’t expect the Christian church to condone it as the two do not mix. There, however, are a few churches that have given in to the demands and allowed their congregations to look the other way but GOD does not.

    The approval of sexual freedoms, young and old, nudity in movies, Every magazine you pick up has nudes as models, most all channels on TV show sex at one point or another, Even flipping to a different one may see something they do not want to see, must I go on. We as Christians are bombarded with the things our churches do not approve of or that we do not feel are appropriate materials or acts for our children to see. Why can’t the gay community accept us and respect what we believe. The constant encroachment on the beliefs of our churches has succeeded in eroding this society as there are many more vile acts being committed today (openly) than ever before Is it too much to ask of those of different beliefs to please be kind enough to allow the Christians of this country to protect our sacred lands, churches and beliefs as our Lord and maker requested. Live your lives the way you want but don’t try to change what the Christian believes by having Government start telling our churches who can use or not use our holy places or what we are allowed to teach. Government should have no say as to what is acceptable beliefs or what acts are appropriate for our temples or holy places as long as we have not threatened our country,do not harbor criminals or use the lands or churches in any way to threaten the government. We do not have a government run church.

    Tomie, again: No, I do not feel threatened or under siege as an individual but my church is! You can make light of this trespass on our freedoms if you so choose, naivety is no excuse, nor are irrelevant frivolous questions. Apparently you have never read about or known anyone who lived in Germany before the war or during. Catch up on your history and you will understand and may even realize that religious freedom is not a right in every country. Go to China and see how many children they will let you have there? (If you don’t believe in abortion or protection -well you have a problem there) Also, don’t speak ill of the government there or you may get shot; protest and you may get shot for protesting.

    As you are aware, some of your questions are being challenged in different churches today. But Christians have the right to fight back, and we will. Ask me the same questions in 10 years and I am sure many more of them will be more relevant and have some merit. Fortunately, in America today we still have religious freedom, therefore if any gays want to use our temples and holy lands, all they need do is denounce their lifestyle, Accept our Savior as their own and become practicing Christians and respect our beliefs. Join the church as members, be married as a heterosexual in whatever church of their specific denomination they wish OR continue in the gay lifestyle and choose any other Private or public facility to have thier wedding.


  20. on 28 Aug 2007 at 5:53 amDavid

    “gay lifestyle” ridiculous “conservative” concept having no connection with reality. Simply put, there’s no such thing, we are as varied and unique as are heterosexuals.

    “true Christian” the definition varies depending on who you are talking to, so cannot be used as a litmus test for validity of beliefs. The Roman church claims to have a monoply on salvation, the Apostolics claim that only by living the way they say can you be saved, some Pentecostals say if you don’t speak in tongues you don’t have a chance. were you dunked or sprinkled, on that rests your eternal destination, I could go on and on. You or I cannot say what a “true” Christian is.

    “abomination” I suggest picking up a good concordance and perhaps an Amplified translation and find out what that word really means and the different things it is used to describe. I think it’s safe to say that you have committed one or two abominations in your life and your church says they are A-OK. What is “sin” and what isn’t has changed about as much and as often as the weather over the centuries.

    Tomie’s questions are excellent, and unless you can honestly answer yes to them then the contiuous whine of Christianity being under attack is just one more myth used by “conservatives” to attack others who do not conform to their opinions. Whether this country was founded as a “christian” nation is debateable but that really matters little, the fact is that it is a different time, a different world and a different country than 200+ years ago. The principles should remain the same but the details must change or we will die. Religion and gov’t MUST remain separate or we are no different than the Muslim dictatorships in the Middle East and Africa.
    Did you know that the push for same-sex marriage also causes global-warming, increased rates of cancer, autism and asthma, that the violence that plagues the world is totally due to the fact that people of the same sex love each other and want to legally protect their loved ones just like everybody else? Oh and I forgot – tooth decay is all due to the fact that us uppity queers believe we should have equal human rights.

    The biggest threat to Christianity is the arrogance and ignorance of some who claim to follow Christ. If you truly want to save Christianity that is what must be fought.

  21. on 29 Aug 2007 at 12:15 pmMyra

    I have read both David’s and Tomie’s input and my only reply is that “Tomie’s questions are Yes, Rediculous!!!! Your response about which church is champion of salvation or who receives the second life with our Savior is also ridiculous and only the Lord will determine who enters his gates, not a particular Church as all Christian Churches claim to believe in the Christ. It is those who obey his laws and live as he commanded us who HE sees fit to enter his gates. No Church has a fast pass to Heaven.
    For the record, I am a Christian, I pray for forgiveness every night, I try not to repeat my sins and yes, I have sinned in the past and being human, I am no stranger to sin. I am born again Christian, who is neither arrogant nor ignorant with a college degree and am seeking to learn more daily about my Savior and what He requires of His children. I know He died for my sins but I am responsible for the sins I commit, there is a consequence. Being no biblical scholar, mind you, I do, however, know my Bible. I would suggest you just read the Bible once through and you would learn that the Lord does not like to be mocked. I repent every day as my Lord requests, you may want to at least start a dialog with Him or begin by reading the Book of Isaiah (that is in the Bible) and see what He did to Babylon and learn how He handles those who mock Him and His laws. That is just one of the Books in the Bible that shows you what he has done and will do to the non-believer. If you haven’t time for readingl the ntire Book, start with Chapters 8 and 9. He does not see humor in the ways of those who do not obey him.

    Yes, we are varied and unique and all made by God with free will to obey Him or be like Satan. Even with the attitude that is coming across in your writings His hand is still held out. Since there are some of you that are so set in changing the world to accept Gays, athiests and agnostics and to destroy that which is Christian, I suggest you start with The Almighty as He is the one you will eventually have to deal with anyway and who has the final say as to what is acceptable. Secularism is not what He expects of us.

    I thank you both for the dialog as I have learned much from our conversations. Although, non of which has been productive of my time. Therefore, there is no need for either of you to reply to this since I am conversing with those whom do not wish to learn but simply want to argue, I will use my time to keep in touch with our elected officials to prevent the destruction of this Country by groups like yours, the ACLU and the numerous other secular organizations whose goal is to destroy the world as we know it. Why waste words on those whom He has already condemned as is written in the Bible (whether you be gay, agnostic or athiest). Only GOD can change your mindsets as you not only seem blind but also deaf to the Truth. Do not despair though, He still performs miracles and there is still hope for those who only want to debate and change his teachings and Laws. God Bless you all! His hand is still stretched out, the rest is up to you.


    David, your rantings are quite humerus and I did not call you a queer, you called yourself one but if the name fits, wear it. I don’t need to label a person a true christian because our Lord already set forth the steps by which he will judge each when he returns, and many a so called luke warm Christian will be disappointed at that time, as is written in the Bible. I know his rules and laws and I try to live by them as best as I can, I don’t deliberately break his commandments and I respect his writings. Yes, even I know I may not make the cut in the end but I am seriously trying to live by his laws and not blastpheming them. I know I am conversing with two non-believers who like Paul will need to have a meeting with their maker before they will ever change their narrow minds about the Bible and thus, you stay cloaked in your fellowship with those of your kind and I will henceforth .

  22. on 29 Aug 2007 at 1:48 pmDave


    I applaud your courage in standing up for Biblical truth. We are simply called to witness this truth – however “inconvenient” it may be to some listeners – in accordance with the Great Commission. Yet we cannot control how people may respond to this message. Some will hear and repent, while others will harden their hearts. Ultimately, no matter what we say to people, it is up to God to bring about any change in their hearts.

    The apostle Peter referred to God’s elect as “strangers in the world” who are “chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.” There will always be those who reject His teachings, for – as our Savior Himself said – “wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it”.

    What then are we to do, having given witness repeatedly to those who refuse to listen? “Shake the dust off your feet … as a testimony against them.” (Mark 6:11) “Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.” (Luke 10:11)

  23. on 29 Aug 2007 at 10:09 pmDoug


    Bravo! You read my mind! After David’s last post, I had the same feeling, and as you exit this discussion, I’m right behind you.

    David, you said that most Christians you have dealt with have been cruel or intolerant of you, or some such words to that effect. I wonder if that was fact or perception on your part, but obviously you strongly beleive it, so I suppose it doesn’t really matter.

    I can at least cite two Christians who have responded to you in a Christian like manner, Myra and myself. When this dialouge began, you were articulate and respectful, but then you just couldn’t hold it together anymore and sadly, your very conspicuous inner vitriol kicked in and an intelleigent and civilized dialouge took a nose dive and suddenly turned into restroom stall grafiti with your inane, angry and uncalled for remarks, and yes, as Myra said, you called yourself “queer,” not anyopne else. Is that kind of rhetoric…you know, the Fred Phelps kind of crap, what we are suposed to be “tolerant” of? David, it’s sewage, and it doesn’t matter if it spews out of the mouth (or keyboard) of a gay or a straight person. Sewage is sewage, by wahtever source. I’m with Myra. After this post, I’m out of this one, too. You can have the last word if you so choose, and all to yourself.

    Objectiveley speaking, I assume you have often been very hurt in your life. We all have to varying degrees and for a myriad of stupid, senseless reasons. Flawed human beings have the propensity for cruelty, and usaully over trite differences, be they sex, sexual preerence, weight, skin color, hair color, height, lack of height, glasses, manner of speech, manner of dress, zits, big noses, religion, and on the ridiculous list goes. I can understand your repsonse, but I won’t condone it. You don’t strike me as a bad or a hard headed kind of guy. Deep down, I think you see and grasp the reasoning in what I’m saying.

    Your response is a similar response I have seen too often from many gays. Their universal symbol of “tolerance” is often the arrow from a one way street sign. This isn’t the fist time I have witnessed dalouge sink down to schoolyard insults, although, to your legitimate credit, we at least had some constructive dialouge for a while. Biblically speaking, I think I am sewing seeds on a rock here, but I’ll make one last attempt. You do not have an alternate lifestyle. An alternate lifestyle is preferring to live in the mountains instead of near the beach, or visa versa. You have a once documented and very serious clinical disorder that was very literally bullied out of psyciatric textbooks in 1973 by radical gays and because of cowardly shrinks, afraid of political correctness. Many APA members have since vehemently contested that decision, and the hushed, and rushed way in which it was made. In 1994, the organization continued the policy by threatening its members from treating gays seeking help, thus further fueling the big lie that has for so long duped far too many people, bith gay and straight, and kept people like you happily enslaved in the fabricated myth that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice , kind of like the frog in the science expiriment, contently sitting in a pan of cold water, unaware and unconcerned that the pan in which he is sitting is sitting on a slowly heating burner of a stove, and that frog will soon voluntarily but naively allow himself to be boiled to death, and with that same, silly, stupid grin on his face. This is the big elephant, or the dirty little secret in the middle of the room that no one wants to discuss, and that younger people (after 1973) don’t remember. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s propganda minister, was a monster, but he was no dummy, and he was right when he said that a lie repeated often enough soon becomes truth, espesically over years when the facts become ancient history and are buried by those with an opposite agenda as newer generations progress in time, and memories fade as much as history book pages yellow. Yes, unquestionably, there are plenty of boneheaded rubes out there who hate homosexulaity because it’s simply different, but there are also many (including me) who hate and reject it because they very correctly relaize that accepting and promoting homosexuality is about as “mainstream” adn “tolerant” and “diverse” as accepting and promoting cancer, or, if you prefer, AIDS. From all that I’ve read, while there are still many questuions behind the roots of homosexuality, many beleive that negative traumatic and/or disturbing environmental factors in one’s developing childhood are often major contributing factors, just like how various other problems, like depression, anxiety, substance abuse, poor self esteem, suicide, promiscuity and dysfunctional relationships are often attributed with homosexuality in adult life, and with many gays, I have seen that ugly pattern with several gays I have known and know. Focus on what I am saying. Despite whatever negative interactions you have had with previous Christians, this Christian is speaking to you with love, not malice. I don’t know what is behind your anger, and I don’t care. That’s your personal business, but reflect if that anger is in any way connected to your homosexuality. You do very much have a burden that I would never wish on anyone, but there are places, both secular and religious, where you can seek treatment, and for some, it has been successful. Homosexuality should not be “tolerated;” it should be treated. Your homosexuality does more than just damage your mind, not to mention the obvious and well known physical risks to your body, but it also endangers your soul. You are living in a state of unrepentant mortal sin, and the longer you wilingly stay in it, the stronger it will hang onto you and hold you down. OK, maybe you think that is all a bunch of hocus pocus. How sure are you that you are willing to risk eternal anguish? Are you a gambling man, David? Eternity is an awful long time. To paraphrase Clint Eastwood, are you feeling lucky? What if I’m right and you’re wrong? I have much sympathy, and yes, to a certain degree, even (real) tolerance for gays, and beleive it or not, I often even pray for them, but I have an unabashed seething hatred for homosexuality. Generals protect their troops, but still hate war. Doctors care for their patients, but still hate sickness. Gays and lesbians are my brothers and sisters, and I love them like I love any of my other brothers and sisters, but I hate the menace of homosexuality that for the sake of brief and fleeting ecstacy wreaks so much havoc and suffering unto gays, both here, and in the next and yes, eternal life. No, I don’t tolerate homosexuality, and I never will, but whether you beleive me or not, I care about your welfare a heck of a lot more than your gay pals who keep perpetuating this sugar coated, politically correct venom and telling what you want to hear. OK, so you don’t like some Christians you have encountered, for wahtver reasons. I don’t like spinach, but I eat other vegetables. Talk to a priest then. Get the answers from someone who spent years studying what the true answers, and the true interpretations to those answers are. Im no expert. I’m just some shcmuck who goes to mass and confession every week, and tries as best he can to live a decent life and abide by God’s will. I’m a sinner, just like you and everyone else. But the difference between you and I is that I reject my sin and try to avoid it. You embrace and advocate for your sin, which means you are as accountable for endangering the souls of others, as well as your own. Go back and look at what you wrote, David. Writing is a much slower proces than talking. You wrote that garbage, and specifically took some time and deliberate premeditaion in doing so. Then you even had to do another step by clicking onto a button to send it. That’s not spontaneous anger, that’s vitriol with deep roots. You are rejecting God. He never rejected you. He wants you to come home, but He puts the ball in each of our courts through free choice. I’m a Christain, David, but I am certainly no saint by any means, but I know as well as beleive that the Holy Spirit works through all of us to do God’s work, just as He is working through me right now. David, do I really sound like Fred Phelps to you? I will pray for you, David, not despite of your anger, but because of it, but my prayer without your choice is about as useful as car with no engine. Without one, the other doesn’t do much good. God is waiting and hoping, David. He made and loves you just like He made and loves me. By His example, Jesus taught us that each of us has our crosses to bear. Suffering creates strength, healing, faith, adn even gives us grace, but only if we handle that suffering well. Call home, David. Whatever you think of me, I very genuinely wish you well.

    OK. I’ve said my piece. Now, along with Myra, I’m done, because my time is also far too valuable (and limited) for empty and defiling hate speech that is supposed to swoon me into a false and a bstardized sense of “tolerance.” I’m also now out of this blog disucssion. Those who wish to continue the conversation (or grafiti as they may also so choose) may now do so without me.

    Peter, I greatly respect both you (and Brian when he previously ran this blog) for being lenient and not censoring the bilge from the dialouge, or for that matter, not separating the chaffe from the wheat, and I undertsand why you do it; to expose the intolerance, hypocrisy and vitriol from (some people) on the other side of our issues. But I wonder if the weeds possibly too often choke the plants in the garden? I beleive David simply posted his rant out of anger in an isolated instance, but several posters on this blog, and you know who the usual suspects are, are little more than gutless cowards, too often very diliberately post insults, ridicule and utter drivel, partly because their blithering immature, and even hateful, nasty idiots, and partly because they intend to stifle speech, rather than promote the farce they hypocritically perceive as “tolerance.” I’ve been back and forth on this blog, but I wonder how many other “Myra’s” and “Doug’s” are out there, reading, but not sharing because too many of the overgrown kids want to play with the real adults? I’m not in any way referring to dissent here, much to the contrary, dissent, and for that matter, even spirited (but appropriate) passion is both necesary and healthy to any wholesome dialouge, but there is a difference between dissent and (forgive the repetition, but it fits), “restroom stall grafiti.” I don’t even object to sarcastic humor, which frankly, I actually enjoy, but there is a difference between that and directing inane and malicious commenatry toward other bloggers in an obvious attempt to ridicule or silence them. I think if anything, genuine dissent probably draws more people in, but most people who have anything of worth to say, be it pro or con, will not bother to do so in an environment full of ridicule and idiotic childish drivel. I pose that observation to you for reflection and consideration. Suggestion, censor the insidious and brainless blog rantings from the wise crack idiots with an underhanded strategy to pursue their agenda, but also create a seapate page for them to publicly humilate themselves to their hearts’ content, and then anyone who really wants to read their low bar grafiti lunacy can go there to view the exhibit…kind of like going to the zoo to be amused by the animals.

    And to Dave, not David, respectfully, I disagree with one statement you made. As I said to David, I don’t beleive God changes our hearts and minds. I beleive He lovingly gives us free choice to change, or not change, as we so desire, but He also provides us with the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures, our clergy and the Catechism, etc.. to give us the proper tools we need to have the opportunity to make the (hopefully) right choice.


  24. on 30 Aug 2007 at 10:04 amDave


    Thanks for all you said. I likewise agree that some of our opponents’ postings contain so much bile and vitriol that further discussion with them can become totally unproductive, and moreover that its offensive tone can dissuade constructive participation by others in this blog. Your suggestion for setting aside a dedicated area on the blog to keep the ranting under control reminds me of the “Hate Hannity Hotline” …

    And thanks also for helping to focus my remarks on the change of heart that is made possible by God’s grace. We are not truly in disagreement. Of course we have free will. The point I was trying to make, in referring to the apostles shaking the dust off their sandals, is that in spiritual matters we are merely the tools of Almighty God. While we may not possess within ourselves alone the power to bring about that change of heart in others, it is the voice of God working through us that can do it. We are only messengers and witnesses to the truth. Ultimately the outcome of that process is up to each individual person who hears the message, and how they choose to respond. Those who honestly desire to change can call upon the Lord, as we are taught in the Bible:

    O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter. (Isaiah 64: 8)

    Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. (Psalm 51: 10)

    Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.(Psalm 139: 23-24)

    And while we cannot predict the specific arrival of the final day of judgment,

    The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3: 9)

    When viewed in this light, as a continued forbearance and opportunity to repent, it is abundantly clear that God is merciful and just. Those who misinterpret by saying “God does not reject” (as seen on some billboards) fail to appreciate the subtle distinction between forbearance and acquiescence. The reality is that, while God provides us with ample opportunity to accept the gift of salvation, some people choose to reject Him!

  25. on 31 Aug 2007 at 6:41 amPeter


    I want to second Dave and Doug’s comments and thank you for your courage and willingness to speak your mind. We’re going to give you the last word in your exchange with the pro same-sex “marriage” commenters.

    I also hope you’ll read the item I posted yesterday in response to Doug. The contributions of folks like you are welcomed and truly desired at FIC Blog. I hope you’ll continue to share your thoughts at FIC Blog in the future. We’ll work to make sure it’s a conversation between pro-family folks like you and those who can stay on topic and disagree respectfully. Thank you again!

  26. on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:58 pmMyra

    I have read the postings of Peter, Dave, and Doug and I thank you for acknowledging your understanding of my point of view. I also thank you for contributing to a broader view by understanding we are all a little different in our beliefs and it is possible to live side by side with the non-militant but unfortunately we still have to deal with the more militant communities. There is a point where we have to draw the line and take a stand. I never felt like I was under attack but I did feel that my words were falling on deaf ears and therefore there was no more need for my input. Being no stranger to the Word and the demands of our Savior, I have no malice toward the Gay community but I have seen the progression of the slow but deliberate watering down of Christianity that has taken place in the last 30 years. It grieves me to know that there are those who are so selfish in seeking approval of their alternative lifestyle that the beliefs and genuine core of our democracy and religion is at risk. I am very alarmed that so many wish to defy our Lord and without first taking the time to read and then making the decision to believe or not to believe his teachings, outright reject them on the basis of the sketchy readings and teaching they have acquired from parents or others who have given them at most a disconnected view of the Bible teachings.

    The subject of this blog was whether or not churches should have to accept that which is vile and wrong (especially in the eyes of the very savior we base our religion on) being performed on holy and religious ground. If our beliefs are trampled on to accommodate a few and we keep giving in for sake of political correctness, then we are no longer obeying our maker but those who defy our maker. In the past, previous generations in our churches were not afraid to excommunicate (sp) those who did not follow the church doctrine or beliefs but today, the tendency is to try to force the church to bend to accept that which is foreign to its beliefs, thus destroying the church and making us luke warm to his teachings. This leads to the eventual death of the church as it is no longer the holy place of our Lord. Any group who sues the church to fulfill their own selfish whims is seeking to destroy our churches whether this is the original intent or not.

    Thanks for the dialog, and thanks for welcoming me back.

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